Comments on: The two WORST things you can think, part one http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/ Tips and tricks for the rest of your life Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:24:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Elevic Pernis | The Road to Weirdom http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-1384 Elevic Pernis | The Road to Weirdom Wed, 03 Nov 2010 09:11:07 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-1384 I myself can attest to the soundness of this advice, a form of Covey's "Seek First to Understand." Whatever you say contrary to their belief system, you'll get screwed. Best way is to avoid argument by understanding where they are coming from. I myself can attest to the soundness of this advice, a form of Covey’s “Seek First to Understand.” Whatever you say contrary to their belief system, you’ll get screwed. Best way is to avoid argument by understanding where they are coming from.

]]> By: Becky Brooke http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-733 Becky Brooke Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:52:43 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-733 “I don’t want something like an addiction to a flavor to make the decision for her when she’s old enough to choose her own eating habits” Loving that post. Reading this newsletter and all the posts above I have realised that I have been feeling in a rut for some time now with regards to conversing with the 'opposition' over Veganism and Animal Rights in general. I have just been feeling a little lost and directionaless ... always seeming to get negatively emotionally charged the second I realise there's even a possibility of the subject coming up. This is a very ineffective response I know but it's hard to control as you can probably appreciate. You can't control what other people think but you can control what you think and this is key, there is sooo much stigma attached to Vegans these days. The 'what not to think' approach is surely the best advice I have had in quite a while, and it's very true. Thanks. Bex >^._.^< “I don’t want something like an addiction to a flavor to make the decision for her when she’s old enough to choose her own eating habits”

Loving that post.

Reading this newsletter and all the posts above I have realised that I have been feeling in a rut for some time now with regards to conversing with the ‘opposition’ over Veganism and Animal Rights in general. I have just been feeling a little lost and directionaless … always seeming to get negatively emotionally charged the second I realise there’s even a possibility of the subject coming up. This is a very ineffective response I know but it’s hard to control as you can probably appreciate.

You can’t control what other people think but you can control what you think and this is key, there is sooo much stigma attached to Vegans these days. The ‘what not to think’ approach is surely the best advice I have had in quite a while, and it’s very true. Thanks.

Bex
>^._.^<

]]> By: C Kane http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-721 C Kane Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:33:49 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-721 Speaking of one of the related issues I commented on above that the post brought to mind, race, this book was mentioned on the radio the other day, maybe you want to do a book review about it, it's called "By Any Greens Necessary: A Revolutionary Guide for Black Women Who Want to Eat Great, Get Healthy, Lose Weight, and Look Phat" Sounds interesting. Speaking of one of the related issues I commented on above that the post brought to mind, race, this book was mentioned on the radio the other day, maybe you want to do a book review about it, it’s called “By Any Greens Necessary: A Revolutionary Guide for Black Women Who Want to Eat Great, Get Healthy, Lose Weight, and Look Phat” Sounds interesting.

]]> By: Al http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-700 Al Sun, 13 Jun 2010 05:35:47 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-700 I love this post, Jason. And I'm using the idea from here on out. Thank you. I love this post, Jason. And I’m using the idea from here on out. Thank you.

]]> By: Jason http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-695 Jason Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:00:27 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-695 "I don't want something like an addiction to a flavor to make the decision for her when she's old enough to choose her own eating habits" Just pulling that quote out a bit to make sure more people get a chance to appreciate it :) “I don’t want something like an addiction to a flavor to make the decision for her when she’s old enough to choose her own eating habits”

Just pulling that quote out a bit to make sure more people get a chance to appreciate it :)

]]> By: Erin http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-694 Erin Wed, 09 Jun 2010 18:51:15 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-694 I was just thinking something along the lines of "why?" in relation to my daughter the other day. When I tell people that I don't eat meat or cheese, the response I usually get is, "I could NEVER give up cheese! I LOVE IT!" Many of them feel badly about the animals too, but they are bound by an addiction. So, in when people ask me how I can make the choice to not feed my daughter animal products, I realized that the best argument for a carnist (see me using the word?) is to explain that I don't want something like an addiction to a flavor to make the decision for her when she's old enough to choose her own eating habits. I am giving her all the tools and the palette to be happy with a plant-based diet that doesn't harm other living creatures. If she decides she wants to eat animal products, it will be a rational choice- not an inability to quit something. I was just thinking something along the lines of “why?” in relation to my daughter the other day. When I tell people that I don’t eat meat or cheese, the response I usually get is, “I could NEVER give up cheese! I LOVE IT!” Many of them feel badly about the animals too, but they are bound by an addiction. So, in when people ask me how I can make the choice to not feed my daughter animal products, I realized that the best argument for a carnist (see me using the word?) is to explain that I don’t want something like an addiction to a flavor to make the decision for her when she’s old enough to choose her own eating habits. I am giving her all the tools and the palette to be happy with a plant-based diet that doesn’t harm other living creatures. If she decides she wants to eat animal products, it will be a rational choice- not an inability to quit something.

]]> By: C Kane http://stayingvegan.com/2010/06/the-two-worst-things-you-can-think-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-692 C Kane Wed, 09 Jun 2010 02:06:54 +0000 http://stayingvegan.com/?p=1052305540#comment-692 Interesting. This is the vegan version of an observation I had a while back about activism in general. When someone says "we have to bomb this entire civilian region in this other country" don't just think how wrong they are, ask why do they think that? Look for root causes. Then keep the factual counter arguments, but think also about their motivations and their needs. Especially emotional needs. For safety maybe. Ok, then you can talk to them about, you agree we have a right to try to achieve safety, but here's why this bomb them to hell is not the right response, even from a selfish point of view (later add in moral arguments) How well this works depends on how deeply a Rush Limbaugh dittohead they are, sometimes it's hopeless but can open minds sometimes. The parallels go deeper actually. Because one huge reason people don't want to admit their country's foreign policy is bad, is because they feel, that makes THEM a Bad Person(TM). They identify with their country. If what you're telling them about the invasion of Iraq or bombing of Hiroshima is true, then their country is bad, and therefore they are bad, but they know they are not bad persons, thus, what you're saying can't be true. They are not thinking these logical steps analytically, at least not usually, but if you had an emotional version of the above, then it's pretty close. Similarly, if what you're saying about animals is true, then they have been doing a horrible thing all these years. And they are a horrible person. "But I know I'm not a horrible person (or if I am, it's too horrible to admit to myself)" they think, so this can't be true. I've also noticed that the worse the morality, the harder to admit it. Killing over 100,000 Japanese civilians in an unnecessary bombing is much more horrible than internment camps, bad as those are, hence it's no surprise that the US finally apologized to Japanese Americans about the internment camps, but to this day there's massive resistance to admit the atomic bombings of Japan were anything but totally necessary and good. We reject new information that conflicts with our self image as good. We identify with our government (we shouldn't but we do). Maybe more so with our food, or eating habits. At this point some grant conclusion should come to my fingers to type in, but I don't have a grand conclusion. However what you said is exactly what I've thought about activism. To stop racism or sexism or homophobia or immigrant-phobia, or pro-war positions, isn't not enough to be right and it's not enough to scream at others about their actions (it might even do more harm than good) but to understand their motivation, conscious or not. And with leaders that motivation may be ugly, but with people it's usually, at its core, not an ugly motivation, but wanting to be safe, wanting to be economically safe, wanting to be respected,and if we can show them how to be physically economically psychologically safe and respected while changing their ways, that, plus the factual arguments, might be a powerful combination. Interesting. This is the vegan version of an observation I had a while back about activism in general. When someone says “we have to bomb this entire civilian region in this other country” don’t just think how wrong they are, ask why do they think that? Look for root causes. Then keep the factual counter arguments, but think also about their motivations and their needs. Especially emotional needs. For safety maybe. Ok, then you can talk to them about, you agree we have a right to try to achieve safety, but here’s why this bomb them to hell is not the right response, even from a selfish point of view (later add in moral arguments) How well this works depends on how deeply a Rush Limbaugh dittohead they are, sometimes it’s hopeless but can open minds sometimes.

The parallels go deeper actually. Because one huge reason people don’t want to admit their country’s foreign policy is bad, is because they feel, that makes THEM a Bad Person(TM). They identify with their country. If what you’re telling them about the invasion of Iraq or bombing of Hiroshima is true, then their country is bad, and therefore they are bad, but they know they are not bad persons, thus, what you’re saying can’t be true. They are not thinking these logical steps analytically, at least not usually, but if you had an emotional version of the above, then it’s pretty close. Similarly, if what you’re saying about animals is true, then they have been doing a horrible thing all these years. And they are a horrible person. “But I know I’m not a horrible person (or if I am, it’s too horrible to admit to myself)” they think, so this can’t be true.

I’ve also noticed that the worse the morality, the harder to admit it. Killing over 100,000 Japanese civilians in an unnecessary bombing is much more horrible than internment camps, bad as those are, hence it’s no surprise that the US finally apologized to Japanese Americans about the internment camps, but to this day there’s massive resistance to admit the atomic bombings of Japan were anything but totally necessary and good. We reject new information that conflicts with our self image as good. We identify with our government (we shouldn’t but we do). Maybe more so with our food, or eating habits.

At this point some grant conclusion should come to my fingers to type in, but I don’t have a grand conclusion. However what you said is exactly what I’ve thought about activism. To stop racism or sexism or homophobia or immigrant-phobia, or pro-war positions, isn’t not enough to be right and it’s not enough to scream at others about their actions (it might even do more harm than good) but to understand their motivation, conscious or not. And with leaders that motivation may be ugly, but with people it’s usually, at its core, not an ugly motivation, but wanting to be safe, wanting to be economically safe, wanting to be respected,and if we can show them how to be physically economically psychologically safe and respected while changing their ways, that, plus the factual arguments, might be a powerful combination.

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